Scandal judgment of
European Court of Human Rights
The Comments Received
By Chris Elliott
Who has not read Ralph Kratzer’s leading article click here to the news published in the Hürriyet Daily News: . The news that the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) has just made a judgment against Turkey and as you said Ralph its a scandal but then that’s only yours and my opinion but what do other people think and say?
Your cyprusscene.com article has created a lot of interest with a flood of comments being made on the article and we thought it best to reproduce them here for people to read and understand why there is such a disagreement over Turkey being seen as being the guilty party by taking the action they did in July 1974 to bring peace back to the island of Cyprus.
But then it’s for you the readers to consider the comments and make up your own mind as to whether justice has been seen to be done in respect of the right for Turkey to mount a peace operation to stop the bloodshed in Cyprus during 1974 when other gaurantor powers chose to do nothing but also that the Turkish Cypriots are still being penalised for this to this day and yet Cyprus through its association with the European Union is still seen as being the innocent party.
Sadly we have seen other disputes around the world and in many cases peoples of different religious views have learned to accept and set aside the horrors of the past and build a better future but here in the Cyprus Island will this ever be the case? Please read the following comments and you may be able to make up your own mind as to where the Cyprus Issue started and what chance there is of peace and harmony ever returning to this Jewel in the Mediterranean.
Scandal judgment of European Court of Human Rights against Turkey
This scandalous decision will surely effect the peace process in Cyprus and the relationship of Greek and Turkish Cypriots. Thank you Ralph Kratzer for your analysis , it hit the nail on its head !!!!!
Thank you, Sermen. ! I am so angry and disappointed about all these hypocrites! It is so sad that this judgment came just now in the middle of the negotiation process!
This is incredulous. They can’t be ignorant of the facts, can they; Or is this a political game?
Kyreniacommentator (Chris Elliott)
Reading the daily outpouring of rhetoric from politicians today, it pays to look back in time to try to learn the truth of what really happened and this is what Makarios said on the 19th July 1974 to the UN Council about the problems in Cyprus and who was at fault. Click here to read Makarios call for help to the UN
An appeal to the ECHR against this unjust and biased judgement. This is a deliberate derailment ploy. There must be a transcript of this judgement. A petition needs to be raised. TC President needs to raise the issue with the GC President and publish his response.
Just read http://www.echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=home. = “In a judgment delivered on 10 May 2001 the Court found numerous violations of the Convention by Turkey, arising out of the military operations it had conducted in northern Cyprus in July and August 1974, the continuing division of the territory of Cyprus and the activities of the “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus”. Regarding the issue of just satisfaction, the Court held that it was not ready for decision and adjourned its consideration. Still think protests should be made but when the final ECHR outcome is known.
Anyone know any links to the case transcript.
Yes it’s definitely scandalous! It should have been 90 Billion Euros!
TFRsecretary (Ralph Kratzer)
Not been informed by whom? The Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs perhaps? After reading the above note by Ralph Kratzer, I need not “browse” your website. So there were thousands of TC’s murdered by the GC’s. This is an outright lie. He can name his source. No Turkish Cypriot has lost property in the Government controlled areas of the ROC. That is another lie. If you entertain writers like Ralph Kratzer, your website has no credibility whatsoever.
TFRsecretary (Ralph Kratzer)
Mr. Kounnas, one of the sources I have for the crimes to the TC´s are my own eyes, because I saw the mass graves left behind by the EOKA in several villages in the Mesaoria as they retreated from the Turkish soldiers. Women, children and old men are lying there!!! And do you know the true story about Erenköy? click here You should know it! And just one example of the seizure of land: who owned the land on which the Larnaca Airport is now? GC´s or TC´s?
Further to my comment above this link needs reading:
Mr Kounas. It would be unfair to say you are ignorant of the facts since I suspect you were very young in 1963 and the truth has been withheld from you. Please search for it and pioneer for justice on both sides of the border. Were you unaware of the terms under which Cyprus was granted independence in 1960?
As far as I am aware, the 30 million euro award for missing persons, is for all missing persons, as the committee is joint TC and GC. Again, as far as I am aware, Turkish speaking Cypriots can return to their properties, as they are all held in trust by a government department. T C properties in the South are not owned by Greek Cypriots. Finally, Mr Secretary as to the true history of Cyprus, I suppose it depends on whether you believe the rewritten propaganda version from Ankara or the truth as told by Greek and Turkish speaking Cypriots !
Lyndsay, the article I published could not only be read in the Turkish press, but in many other publications Europe-wide. Are they all victims of the propaganda from Ankara? And the introduction is, as I wrote, my personal opinion. And as it seems not only MY opinion!
Jim Kounnas is well known for his bias nationalist one sided views. Perhaps he can explain how the 85 murdered victims of Tohni in 1974 (a few miles from Limasol) and the village of Vroisha near the Troodos mountains in 1964 was burned to the ground while under the protection of the ROC. These are just 2 examples. Are they not entitled to compensation. Oops sorry he will tell us the TCs suffering was ”all self inflicted”. Would it not be more appropriate to acknowledge that all sides have suffered in the madness that started with the desire for Enosis? Is it not time to acknowledge the madness that people like Jim Kounas persist on. It seems that Greek propaganda is gospel while others peoples suffering is played down. It seems that while the EU plays up to a negotiated settlement their courts prefer to throw a heap full of spanners into the works. Perhaps Mr Kounnas is one of those who actually thrive on constant enmity and perpetual conflict? Carry on mate, sadly its the people of your mind set that ensure the perpetual conflict. While on the one hand he supports the decisions of the EU in relation to the Cyprus problem, I have no doubt that he is the first to complain the treatment of Cyprus and Greece during the economic mess that their respective governments have inflicted on their people
Ralph Kratzner made several statements. They remain unanswered. What is the source that thousands of TCs were killed by the GCs PRIOR to 1974 as he states and all the TCs who LOST property. At least show some integrity and answer the questions instead of attacking me and accusing me of being a “nationalist” which I am not.
TFRsecretary (Ralph Kratzer)
OK, Mr. Kounnas! Just have a look eg at the following publications: The Cyprus Question by Michael Stephen, M.P. or The Genocide Files by Harry Scott Gibbons (a British journalist) or Gegner für immer? (Opponents forever?) by Peter J. Albrecht (a German book author). All three of them are neither GC´s, TC´s, nor Greeks or Turks. The books are not propaganda, they simply tell the truth. Two of the books contain photo material from these days. Do you want to tell us this would all be fakes??? Come on, be serious! The rest of your questions are answered by Ismail Veli´s last comment (who has profound knowledge of the Cypriot history!)
Given that a negotiated settlement is allegedly imminent this ruling must have been published to totally derail the process. I continue to be amazed at how the world sees the Cyprus situation i.e. one of the GC portraying at every opportunity at every and any meeting that they are the innocent party. The problem is that too many TC’s over the years have assumed that the UN et al would see through all of this propaganda and not protested strongly enough.
The one thing I fail to understand is that Cyprus was supposed to be protected by SIX signatories to a Guarantee. Turkey was the only country prepared to stand by that agreement to protect a group who were being systematically destroyed. I believe that all the signatory countries must stand up and be counted against this judgement. If I were the Turkish government I would tell the court where to place their judgement.
Mr Pearce, Rauf Denktash is on record in a BBC interview that the first bomb placed outside the Turkish Information Office in Nicosia in 1958 was placed by a friend of his and the act pinned on the GCs in order to “raise the tension between the TCs and GCs”. The record also shows that the mosques in Cyprus were bombed by the Turkish air force for the same purpose. Next you’re going to tell us that the Ukraine is getting what it deserves when it’s a well known fact that Russian masked militants have been agitating the Russian people to split from the rest of the Ukraine. This is a Cyprus repeat. I know of Turkish Cypriots whose fathers were FORCED to use their fishing boats in Kyrenia to smuggle arms into Cyprus and those who refused were murdered by the mainland Turks. Turkey ordered that the Nicosia-Limassol road at Tochni be cut off with road blocks and kept cutting the telephone lines to disrupt communications. In fact it’s a well known fact that Turkey sent militia from Turkey to Tochni to try to organise the TCs to create an enclave in the area because the TCs refused to do it. I’m still interested in Mr Kratzer’s sources. By all means take your time
Just read my answer above!
Lyndsay you claim that all TCs can return to their properties in the south. Which ones??? many Turkish villages have been turned to rubble. Airports, power stations and roads, car parks have been built by the GC authorities on most of them, and the Greek Cypriot authorities have stated many times that the Turkish homes can only be returned on 2 conditions. 1/. they need to go and live back in the south. 2/. They have to wait for a settlement. In addition to all that can you please tell us why one hundred thousand properties in the south have not been given title deeds to the people who have bought them since 1974? Why have the Greek side refused to set up a immovable property compensation court similar to the one in the North where many GCs have in fact sought and received compensation??. Its time people stopped looking at the problem from their own blinkered eyes and see the situation as it really is, or this mess which was started with the dream of Enosis will continue to haunt all Cypriots regardless of their ethnicity. One last thing has Mr Kounnas or Liyndsay ever bothered to go and pay a visit to the Turkish Cypriot Martyrs office where over 2000 precise details, photos and family information on the victims are given. Its only a walk away from the green line. They may be surprised at how well recorded the fate of the victims are kept. Or perhaps they are too nervous to learn that the propaganda over the last 50 years by the Greek authorities and media has been a lot of hogwash
Folks your are confusing the ECHR with the EU and the ECJ. They are not the same jurisdiction – same difference I hear you cry, but I thought that I should just inform the debate. Good luck Mr Kounnas with your misguided and incorrect views – you are part of the problem not a solution, which is what I think you want.
It seems that one of my posts on Tochni has not been posted by your moderators. Nevertheless, the fact is Turkey has finally been found guilty by the ECHR of it’s invasion and continuing occupation of Cyprus. It is not me that says it. For your information Ergin Balli I am a refugee from Famagusta and I DEMAND the unconditional withdrawal of the Turkish thieves and cowards from my properties. Turkey’s land grab in Cyprus will not succeed and they can use whatever excuses they come up with albeit the “protection” of the TCs.
Well, now your opinion gets a face!
”In fact it’s a well known fact that Turkey sent militia from Turkey to Tochni to try to organise the TCs” Mr Kounnas this is an extraordinary statement born of ignorance. Please tell us where you got this “well known fact”.? My wife’s family are from Tochni and the missing persons committee has finally found the 85 victims who were rounded up in 1974 and taken to 2 separate locations and butchered. This act was assisted by many of their neighbours led by a Mr Andricos Melanie his cousin and a few others. You demand justice. So do all the victims of the tragedy which you seem to thrive on.
Mr Kounnas in ref to your roadblock story you are confusing the Tochni massacre of 1974 with Kophinou 1967. Again you are excusing the massacre of innocent Turkish civilians by Greek military forces and passing the buck onto Turkey. Perhaps the fact that the Markos Drakos statue was blown up in 1963 and blamed on the Turks has escaped your attention. Please check Cyprus mail articles on that. You mention about arms coming into Cyprus from Turkey. That’s true. But what about the 10.000 mainland Greek troops sent to Cyprus in 1964 and culminating in the 1967 fiasco at Kophinou which you so eagerly blame the Turks for with a silly excuse about a roadblock. Havre you looked at the details of the casualties of that event who were all civilians, including people in their 80s?? You are not suggesting that old age pensioners were involved I hope. Perhaps the Greek Church holding Enosis plebiscites in 1921, 1930, 1950 and EOKA’s murder of hundreds of its own peoples has also escaped your attention. Why were these murderers allowed to run Cyprus politics and then awarded with important positions. Yorgacis, Sampson and Papadopoulos comes to mind. Are you seriously suggesting that the TCs should have just stood by and not try to defend themselves with what ever means or support they could get??? The international media of the 1960s is full of graphic details of the events. Its time you got off your hobby horse of Turk bashing and done your homework. While we are at it perhaps the hundreds of Greek victims families during the coup should be compensated by Greece. Perhaps on that we can agree.
I have had these lines of argument countless times with Turkish Invasion sympathisers on the net. It is pointless. If the Turkish Cypriots haven’t understood they have been used as pawns by Turkey in order to retake Cyprus, we have nothing further to discuss. Your little “history lesson” above is superficial and taken out of context. It seems TCs have amnesia of British Colonial rule and how the local population was abused financially ever since 1878 with people not being able to make ends meet nor were Cypriots allowed to export their produce except to the UK for pittance. My grandfather who worked in the mines of Skouriotissa couldn’t even afford to buy a pair of shoes and walked barefoot everyday for several miles to and from the mines. I think Union with Greece did cross their minds on several occasions. In closing, it is unfortunate that the TCs are doomed to extinction as predetermined by Turkey who is systematically replacing them with mainland Turkish settlers.
TFRsecretary (Ralph Kratzer)
Thank you, Mr. Kounnas for this comment. In a certain way I can even understand and accept your opinion. But don´t you think, in those days not only your grandfather suffered, but the major part of the entire Cypriot population. Against this background, I can partially even understand the idea of ENOSIS among the GCs, but not the way how it was enforced by the EOKA. The attacks on the Turkish-speaking minority of Cypriots in the 1950s, 1960s and early 1970s is inexcusable. Nor the fact that the GCs represent themselves since 1974 as the sole victims of the Cyprus conflict and that a part of them is not ready to date to recognize the TCs as part of the total Cypriot population with equal rights.
Unable to answer the serious historical mistakes Mr Kounnas has made it seems he has chosen to completely change the essence of his argument., and changed the argument. As for amnesia on British rule it was not the TCs who chose to have our Island join Greece which would in effect have meant that Cyprus would have never become an independent country. The past plebiscites for Enosis and constant demands to the British in that respect is not an illusion but was for many Turkish Cypriots a reality. Is it not best to learn from past mistakes and agree that ALL CYPRIOTS have been losers instead of constantly Turk bashing which has led to the massive distrust and lack of confidence in each other. If and when everyone accepts those mistakes then we can finally put the past behind us.
Mr Kounnas states ”It seems TCs have amnesia of British Colonial rule and how the local population was abused” It seems you are using this argument to justify the desire for Enosis with Greece. Strangely when the last Enosis plebiscite took place in 1950 Greece had just come out of a savage civil war which cost 150.000 lives. Is this the salvation you was looking for?. What a joke. The British ‘abused Cyprus’, The ‘Ottomans persecuted the Cypriots’. The Venetians brought feudalism yawn yawn. It seems everyone in history abused the ‘poor old Cypriots’. 3 years of independence and the desire for Enosis and only Enosis was the goal. Are you sure it was the TCs who were the ‘pawns’? If the GCs were not pawns, then you deliberately set out to destroy the independence you constantly argue for. If the GCs dream turned into a nightmare and dragged the whole of the Island into the abyss then its time to reverse the way of thinking. Sadly if Mr Kounnas remarks are anything to go by we still have along way to go.
Kyreniacommentator (Chris Elliott)
Reading the various comments made on this article it is sad to see that the Truth of the Cyprus issue has been hidden away since 1974 but this is now being corrected by other advisory comments that have been made above and tell the truth as it happened.
For those New readers to cyprusscene.com they will find we have a Portfolio which contains Project pages listing many themed articles and of the Cyprus Issue, please refer to “Cyprus Strife” and “Cyprus – The Issue as it Developed” where you will find all of those hidden facts and we will be adding more in the future..
Some readers may like a quick link to learn some important facts and these can be read by clicking on the links below.